tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8817171247555815363.post962999527205784390..comments2024-03-26T05:57:44.937+00:00Comments on True Economics: 29/8/2012: Some facts about Irish average earnings: Q2 2012TrueEconomicshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07350536454228478974noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8817171247555815363.post-30657600923993523742012-09-07T07:49:29.892+01:002012-09-07T07:49:29.892+01:00Hi Joseph,
Not a worry, I understand what you ar...Hi Joseph, <br /><br />Not a worry, I understand what you are saying. <br /><br />In terms of comparing like-for-like, I agree, we have to adjust for skills, experience etc. In a way, I usually do some of it by referencing longer tenures, on average in public sector. Not always and perhaps not enough. These are not areas I work in in terms of research, and one cannot and need not, in fact, do so every time we touch the subject. <br /><br />I never subscribed to the doctrine that 'everyone should take proportional pain', by the way. Even argued against it. So my concluding statement is not about my belief, but about the actual fact of the Government intention.<br /><br />Now, suppose we start with two different glasses, containing different volumes of water. We can still compare the rate of change in the two glasses to see if they are being drained proportionately at an equal rate.<br /><br />That is exactly what is being done in the post. <br /><br />The Table from CSO shows that higher skilled in both public and private sectors have suffered far lesser rates of earnings contraction than lower skilled private sectors. <br /><br />mY argument, however, still stands - with opposed movements in average tenure (speculated, of course, as no data is provided by the CSO), the shift in earnings has been significantly to the disfavor of the private sector.<br /><br />There are many factors that drive these differentials. In some public sector occupations, such as for example medicine (at higher end of earnings - e.g. doctors and specialist nurses) and education (third level), the duration of experience (tenure) is linked with continued education requirements and thus tenure is positively linked to skills. same as in many private sector occupations. However, in many public sector occupations there is deterioration in skills relative to starting educational attainment. So the argument that public sector workers are, on average better educated, may be true, but it does not automatically imply they are more skilled or more productive. <br /><br />In other words, just because more public sector workers have a starting third level qualification does not mean they are doing more productive or higher value-added jobs. <br /><br />We can go on and on about these differentials and dynamics etc, but the fact remains - no matter how you spin it:<br />1) Public sector is not getting dramatically more productive compared to private sector;<br />2) Public sector is becoming more expensive in terms of wages/earnings than private sector.<br /><br />That's the point I make.<br /> TrueEconomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07350536454228478974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8817171247555815363.post-35742274128672445722012-09-07T01:17:06.467+01:002012-09-07T01:17:06.467+01:00Apologies, if I came across as accusing you of bei...Apologies, if I came across as accusing you of being deliberately dishonest. That is not the case at all and anyway such a position would be extremely hard to reconcile with working in the public sector. <br /><br />I read your site from time-to-time and invariably find it extremely helpful. Likewise, though I find the politicians, with few exceptions, to be excruciating on Vincent Browne your input is always interesting and informative.<br /><br />I still maintain though that unless you are comparing like with like - the findings will be erroneous and misleading and was critical of your post for those reasons.<br /><br />You say you make no conjectures yet the final sentence reads. <i>'Remember, we are being told that everyone should take proportional 'pain'...'.</i><br /><br />Now this may very well turn out to be true but it is impossible to say for definite from this data. If you have two identical jobs with the same level of experience and responsibility and the private sector wage is lower - then the statement is true.<br /><br />Sorry, I should have been more explicit the first time.Joseph Condronhttp://yellowmagpie.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8817171247555815363.post-3708759889624876842012-08-30T05:58:58.570+01:002012-08-30T05:58:58.570+01:00Joseph, in fact, your comment is either purposeful...Joseph, in fact, your comment is either purposefully dishonest or erroneous sloppy. I make no conjectures you accuse me of making.TrueEconomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07350536454228478974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8817171247555815363.post-69850831818902223252012-08-30T05:56:47.253+01:002012-08-30T05:56:47.253+01:00Joseph, all complaints to CSO, please. This is OFF...Joseph, all complaints to CSO, please. This is OFFICIAL data for Ireland. If you have a problem with the way data is reported and collected - do engage with them.TrueEconomicshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07350536454228478974noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8817171247555815363.post-64001781633094516662012-08-30T00:48:07.618+01:002012-08-30T00:48:07.618+01:00Those figures of €611.66 and €918.99 for private v...Those figures of €611.66 and €918.99 for private versus public are almost worthless by themselves. <br /><br />You need to have a better breakdown and compare similar positions with similar amounts of experience in order to draw any meaningful conclusions. <br /><br />There are a lot of highly qualified positions in the public sector - arguably more so than in the private sector given the fact that it comprises of doctors, consultants, teachers, solicitors, judges and lecturers, among others. <br /><br />People with those positions are naturally going to draw much larger wages than the average worker in the private sector. Plus it isn't difficult to imagine that the private sector contains more menial and hence lower-paid jobs.<br /><br />Of course there are a lot of overpaid people in the public sector but they are far from the majority. <br /><br />Your post is too simplified and until you analyse like-with-like your findings will continue to be erroneous and misleading.Joseph Condronhttp://yellowmagpie.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8817171247555815363.post-51685516145342392612012-08-30T00:47:09.479+01:002012-08-30T00:47:09.479+01:00Those figures of €611.66 and €918.99 for private v...Those figures of €611.66 and €918.99 for private versus public are almost worthless by themselves. <br /><br />You need to have a better breakdown and compare similar positions with similar amounts of experience in order to draw any meaningful conclusions. <br /><br />There are a lot of highly qualified positions in the public sector - arguably more so than in the private sector given the fact that it comprises of doctors, consultants, teachers, solicitors, judges and lecturers, among others. <br /><br />People with those positions are naturally going to draw much larger wages than the average worker in the private sector. Plus it isn't difficult to imagine that the private sector contains more menial and hence lower-paid jobs.<br /><br />Of course there are a lot of overpaid people in the public sector but they are far from the majority. <br /><br />Your post is too simplified and until you analyse like-with-like your findings will continue to be erroneous and misleading.Joseph Condronhttp://yellowmagpie.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8817171247555815363.post-47807411023788617162012-08-29T22:12:12.119+01:002012-08-29T22:12:12.119+01:00Those figures simply beggar belief. There's tw...Those figures simply beggar belief. There's two Ireland's now. How can the govt let this continue? FF/FG/Labour are all pro Croke Park and haven't come forward with any realistic proposals to reform the public service. By "reform" I mean flatten the organisational structures and redeploy expensive, non-productive layers of middle <br />and higher mgt to the front line. <br /><br />Do I have to vote for Sinn Fein now? At least they'd cap the pay at 100K, it's a lot more radical than anything FF/FG/Labour have proposed.<br /><br />When are you on TV again Constantine? You should mention these figures.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com